Counselors Craft a Curious Path

Ep 1: Open Conversation- Journey of Self Discovery

• Olivia • Season 1 • Episode 1

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We’re totally figuring this podcast thing out as we go—no plan, just diving in with the drive to make something real, ready or not! In this episode, we talk about where therapy and creativity meet, share some personal reflections, and chat about what it means to model healthy behavior in therapy. We also get into how the mental health system shapes things, and toss around the idea of “wisdom downloads” as part of growing and learning. Authenticity, community, and the weirdness of mental health norms all come up, too. Got something you want us to dig into? Hit us up! 

Welcome. I'm Caitlin and we're stepping into our future. What is our future? You know what, I was writing a blog post this morning, which I haven't written a blog post since high school. That was like the way I reflected everything. And I think that's why I was so happy in high schools because I had a place to like let everything out. So beautiful. I want to show it you sometimes so can see who I am and where I came from. But I was starting to write something this morning. It was related to what you just said. Don't remember what you just said. uh I was writing about, oh, I guess just like who I am and how I've become who I am and how I would come home every day from high school and monologue. I'm an actor, so a lot of the terms I use are very acty. uh Monologue to my mom about the day and how that would be like a way for me to practice speaking and taking in her responses and adapting to how she responds and practice storytelling and just how like my whole life, it's not just school. I'm in school right now that has been preparing me for being a therapist. It's every day after high school, you know, and learning humans and talking about my day with someone who was actually responding to me. So yeah, that's what my post is about. Where do you blog? I literally just went on Weebly today and made something. I have not blogged at all. I just had time today. really want to do a sub stack? you want to do a sub stack? Good. I want to do, and I want it to be a part of the podcast and video. I think that's awesome. Yeah, with like, what would you want to do on it? Okay, give me one thing. Like reflections or like I was thinking personal reflections, sharing art, creating a platform for other artists to share art. And then also us talking about like, I was like, I feel like people could benefit from hearing. what came up in therapy this week and what are like the little tidbits of wisdom, but in a way like where it's like HIPAA compliant where you're not giving any information, just like, and then how it relates to like our journey. But yeah, I've really, part of it is I want to switch social media platforms to Substack. Cause I feel like it's more politics proof. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the thing I was thinking, but I feel like with us at Effective Artistry. Some of us go through periods of making a ton of stuff and then we don't make anything. And I feel like if we had a collective, then it might be able to have more consistent output, but it's not just reliant on one person. um I love that. think that's great. And to like do that work for people so they don't have to even worry about making things. We'll have the subsector available and then you can create on the platform that we have given to you. You were saying something about bringing up stuff about sessions and it made me think about how like We could do that on this. Yeah. Like what? Oh, hi. For sure, but I was thinking like you said, like, and then tie it back to our own lives. And I was thinking how much clients that we have at Effective Artistry already overlaps so much with what we're talking about. But that won't be challenging at all. It all is like, I'm also taking a test this week. Oh, I'm also, yeah. Yeah, and I was also thinking that I feel like it could be useful for me as a human being in my personal life to try to like distill the different kind of like wisdom downloads I'm getting. They feel like wisdom downloads. What does that mean? so... essentially like things people say to me and things I say to them feeling like there's a thread between them and that there's something like worth sharing. want to try to think of an example so this becomes more clear. Oh like sometimes it'll be something about dating. Oh okay so like I think this is like a couple months ago but like the download of the week that I would kind of describe is like to have a romantic relationship that you want you have to model the behavior even down to like the feelings that you're putting out there towards the other person to then have the relationship become closer to what you want it to be. And you only have so much control over, you know, outcomes or whatever, but like modeling is the most effective way to like create that. And then throughout like the course of the week, it was like multiple clients dealing with relationships and like, cause it's so normal and culture to be like, want my partner to change in these ways, and then I will become more vulnerable and I'll open up to them and I'll love them more and our relationship will grow or whatever. But it's very much like this person needs to change first. And that's even with people who acknowledge that that's like not how it works. I just think it's literally like so baked into our language. And so the modeling stuff, and then I was applying it to my relationship and then that was working and then it kept working. and I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much so. And then I kept working and working and working. And I'm like, my God, like that's the wisdom download for relationships recently. download as a topic is kind of adorable. Yeah, yeah, because the other thing about download is like I feel like download doesn't make it about us, it just makes it about like, oh, somehow what's happened in our week this week, this like meaning has come from it versus like, we are the arbiters of knowledge and wisdom. So yeah, and it's also playful. And it's that red thread is what I call that red thread of connection. Yeah, I was in the Chicago Playback Theater Company. It is, I don't know if I've talked to you about it, but I haven't talked to you about it. It is an improvisational form of theater where audience members come and then the actors play back a story from their life. So the audience members tell a story and they cast the actors of I Want You as my Sister. Three words to describe your sister in a story. drama. It's part of the drama therapy wheel, which we could get into another day. Yeah, it's a beautiful wheel. um But ah in playback, I don't know of every group that does this, but for us, um in one of our first meetings, we had like a giant red thread and we all got to know each other. We did a bunch of getting to know you games. And then we said, I am connecting this to so-and-so because they also have a family who's gone through divorce. and then the next person and then by the end we're all connected and make this beautiful red thread structure almost like a mandala looking thing whatever and then we cut the string and made bracelets out of them and it's like your little keepsake for the end. Beautiful! god. So we could do that for a group if you wanted. oh nice. Yeah. That's such a great way of describing my experience of like overlaps in clients lives with overlap in my life with overlap in friends lives with overlap in overlap in like families lives and also just like. That's one of the things I like about podcasts is like I'll listen to them and almost tune out of them to a certain extent where I feel like I get the wisdom download I'm looking for. Because I like tune in and I'm like... is I want to like connect that of like sometimes it's not even, oh I have a family that's gone through a divorce but it's like we both like ice cream and that is like powerful enough in itself. my gosh I didn't know other people liked this thing that I liked. uh And I think that's also really important with the way the world's going, cause it makes us feel more connected. yeah. So like what we are doing right now is we are doing an initial recording of like a stream slash podcast that we're starting and we're just trying to figure it out. And I think the thing we're modeling here that is useful, no, really, this is so hard that I think would be useful for a lot of my clients is You have an idea and you literally just do it. within like previous versions of myself would think of this idea as like, doesn't even count as an idea. Like it's like, a podcast or a stream with Olivia and like, yeah, but first we have to figure out the name, the topic, the guests, the length, the sequencing, the intro music, the logo. but the recording. Yeah, exactly. then often for me and for my clients, like the recording never comes or when it does come, they're like, my God, Olivia and I like for me like Olivia and I like sat down and then we realized we actually just want it to be about like baseball. don't even want to talk about there. And then it's like, but then we made a logo. That's about therapy. And we chose tight. Right. That's about therapy. it's like baseball. Yeah. But now we want it to be about baseball. But yeah, that's why I use that as an example because I'm like, it has to be like very surprising. yeah, but yeah, so that's what we're doing now. So like, I, my intention is that this becomes something that we record and we do on a schedule. So it's kind of like a ritual. um I already am feeling so much more confident about it just talking right now. I just want to say it, to name it. actually not feeling more confident. I'm feeling just as confident as I was before. But it was a lot of confidence. Yeah, it was like very... No, my baseline was like very highly confident and like we just have to do it and now we're doing it and I'm still very highly confident. You know what? I was anxious only in a sense of like, I gonna have anything to say? Which is a fear I have often, but because I was just doing this stream with Brandon and Brandon is very skilled at talking as I am too, but with Brandon I... It's just different, right? Sometimes I wonder because I was on the stream too if it's something about him being a boss and also the stream being a thing that he started and also like the regular people who come on it and comment and like so it kind of That's why I wanted to start something new because I was like I wanted to be like just like whatever Random shit that happens between the two of us. Like what is it? What does it do? Right? And also I really want to get other people on effective artists I'm the near shirt and I'm admiring it. Thank you. Yeah, it is a vintage kimono. I think I got it for like, I don't know, like six dollars at a store in Wisconsin, like six years ago or so. Yeah. So it's fun. I wore it because I'm wearing athleisure and I was like, I don't feel like dressing up. And so I'll just put on this Berkeley kimono. Yeah. So like a thing that I'm so yeah, now I'm thinking about like wisdom downloads. Yeah, there's something so nice about that. And then like another thing I'm thinking about is I feel like our job is really special and very meaningful in like many ways and makes change and great. But one of the downsides to being an individual therapist at a group practice is that the scope of the people we are. have the privilege to help. Technically it expands to like their scope in their life. So it's not literally just the client. yeah, yeah. But like it is literally just those clients that we're having interactions with. And all those scaling up involves like there are not like a hundred people in this room with us. It at least involves like disseminating information on a larger scale that can theoretically make more of an impact. And for a while I was like terrified of that. I didn't think I was good enough, didn't think I was smart enough, didn't think I had enough experience as a therapist. Then I just got really scared about like people hating me. I was like, if I say like woo woo stuff on the internet, then someone's gonna be like, where do you live? I'm coming after you. And I'm like, my gosh. So there was that. And then there was like, okay, now I'm ready to do it. feel confident enough. But who do I do it with? And when do I do it with? And how can I do it perfectly? And then so much planning. And I'm like, no, we're just we're just gonna do it. Some of my favorite podcast hosts are the ones that say, I don't know what I'm doing. are like, I can't believe people listen to me. And it's like, that's exactly it. Because I'm relating to you. Like, I feel like you're in my kitchen with me, you know? Like, you don't have to be an expert. You can bring on experts of certain topics. And like, that's great, but I'm here because of you, you know? Yeah, I I guess I do feel like I'm an expert in probably a few things, which is funny that I can't name them. That's really interesting the word expert and then not naming it. But I like, I feel like a thing that can be missing with therapists who talk about stuff is they don't seem like human and they become too- Like other therapy based podcasts, I feel like it's basically like, hello, we know how to give you advice if you meet the demographic of our clients. And we're like literally just trying to get you to listen to this. So you buy sessions with us or buy our book or whatever, but like it doesn't feel real. So like one of the reasons why I was kind of looking for a podcast partner where it's like, this isn't just about like, hey, I know. 100 words that are synonyms for trauma. And it's like, no, like, we can be human beings too and that matters a lot. And that's part of modeling. And that's what I love about effective artistry so much is it's really helping me lean into the discomfort and Like I would be an excellent Robot at a lot of things, but right. Yeah But this is helping me lean into something that I Really truly believe in yeah And it's giving me language to things. I didn't even know there were there was language for um Yeah, and guess I was Brandon, our boss, the owner of Effective Artistry. He told me, I was like, how should I market myself? And he was like... what's your personal philosophy? Like what's your philosophy? Start thinking about it. And then it turned into like, I was just talking on like a forest walk to a voice note, talking to myself. But I was like, I just need to start thinking like, what would I write? And it ended up kind of turning into like a therapist handbook, which was really interesting about like how to do like good therapy. was really funny. And I was like starting to just riff off of like different stages of therapy. And one of the stages was about like, I was saying something like if you don't if you don't do the things in your life that you're telling your clients to do then you don't have and there's lots of details to go in with that but then you don't have not only like the intellectual experience because you need to do it to intellectually understand it you also don't have the like embodied experience and you don't have the intuitive experience so then if you're giving people advice like helping people through certain problems that you haven't like done any of the work towards, then it will seem like inauthentic and not click even if literally the thing you're saying to the client. is helpful. And so then it was like, okay, if you're going to work with clients and you want it to be effective and you want it to matter, like you need to do the things you're telling them to do. And so what I'm thinking about how that applies to this meeting that we're having and recording this is that like, this is shit that I tell my clients to do all the time. Like you have an idea, just try it. And like, I'm sitting with the discomfort of like, I'm literally just trying it. Do you have another example of things that you have done that you're like, I haven't been doing that, but I've been telling my clients to do that and then did it? So many. And let's give me. I'm a new therapist. I'm still in training. So. um lot of stuff in my romantic relationship like I'll be like I think it could be useful for you to... here. You're talking about like carrying around things that you're ashamed of that feel really heavy to you and you feel like your partner doesn't understand you. Did you tell your partner about those things that you're ashamed of? No. Well, how could your partner understand your shame without knowing the things you're ashamed of? Well, I tried to talk to them about just like feeling shamed. It's like, no, you need to like tell them the things you're ashamed of and see how it plays out. And I did this with a few clients. and it like really helped them but was also terrifying and then I did it for myself and I'm like, my God, this is like such a game changer. A lot of stuff around art, like I've told artistic clients like try a different path in the arts that you're new at so you can kind of like practice beginner's mind and like playing around and being imperfect. So I did that with pottery, which I was telling clients to do for years, like just play around, do something that's like more. makes me think of, it makes me think I'm a theater director too and how I've had a lot of teachers or directors who I don't think have an acting background as much and how valuable my acting experience was to help these actors and really know like what literally been there. what it's like to be on stage and what the techniques I'm giving them. I'm never going to give something to one of my actors that I wouldn't do myself. You know, I'm going to try and model for them. I'm going to be bigger and goofier so like they can't even top that because like I want to, I don't know. No, that's exactly what it is. It's modeling. and the thing that was interesting that came in the forest walk where I was talking to myself was that the modeling, a lot of it is done without speaking. Like you deciding, you know what, I want to shave off all of my hair. because I've been dreaming of being like having a shaved head for like 10 years and I've always just been afraid. Literally shaving off your hair, coming to a session with a shaved head, even if it's never talked about or the clients just like, I like that. Like your energy, like you're coming into it. like, I am like being courageous and being myself. But it could even be like. drinking less caffeine, it just, so, so I think the thing that gets missed with like in the therapy world about this is it, it's literally modeling everything. Like it's modeling an entire life. It's every choice you make. And then what I've been saying to friends who are like, isn't it so hard to be a therapist right now with like the Trump administration and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, no, I'm actually so glad because like, I feel called to keep my shit together and build community in my life and foster joy in my life and make art and be happy in like wacky fucking times. I feel so called to do that not only for myself and the people I love in my personal life, but also my clients. Like I am in community with them. Yeah. And I want to offer them. I want to be in community with them in times that I think could be really useful for them to be in community with me too. like it. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's, that's also part of the modeling is like. I'm here and I actually had a great weekend. like I went to Puerto Rico. I had an amazing trip. There are people who would say, how dare you spend your resources going on a vacation during these times? Like you should just keep working or like whatever it is. Like there's so many reasons that I should not have gone and had fun for 13 days or whatever, but it's, yeah. Yeah, and E, mean, modeling the I don't know's too, which, every day I'm working on that. But even being like, how are you doing, Olivia? And instead of just being like, I'm good, I'm fine, it's like, you know what? I am adjusting to the in this room right now. like, showing the humanness is just... Yeah, um I've been doing that more with check-ins with clients too at the beginning of the session. Like today I said something like I'm feeling so foggy. Like my mind is feeling so foggy. I was telling Brandon that sometimes I feel like because I'm aware of myself doing that now that I'm lying or that I'm being performative about it because I've like clocked it. I'm like, you're doing it. You're, you're showing your authenticity, but like, is it authentic because you're aware of it? And I get in this whole circle of like, I don't know. I just get mushy sometimes of like, what is being authentic if like, you know. being authentic is good and like, is that authentic? then you're like aware of it, you know? Yeah, there's something about I haven't like put my finger on this yet, but there's something about the conversation about authenticity That we have that feels inauthentic and by we I mean as a society Yeah, And I wonder if it's what you're talking about like the more the more aware you are of am I being authentic or am I being inauthentic the more in your head you are which technically means the less authentic you're being because you're more in your head and you're less in the moment because Theoretically, you're the most authentic when you're in the present, in the moment. Yeah. So then like... In some ways you are being inauthentic by cognitively acknowledging your level of authenticity while you are authentically sharing who you are with a client. And in other ways you're being authentic because previous version of you would have said like, yeah, I'm doing good. like telling them what's on your mind to a certain extent, even though you're like going back and forth in cognition is more authentic. So you are being both, you are being inauthentic and authentic. Awesome. And then we could get into the whole conversation about like, what does that actually mean? And masking and like authenticity because we're always ourselves even when we feel like or think we're not being ourselves because how could you not be yourself? But yeah, and then the and then like you can go down a whole rabbit hole about like what is the self and traits and genetics and. m Mental illness doesn't exist. Yeah. That's the fastest way to say it. A slightly longer way to say it is like mental disorders. in the DSM, which is like the Bible of mental disorders. That's where all of them come from. So if anyone is not sure what the DSM is, it's essentially a handbook that says this is the mental disorder manual. Yeah. That like those things do not exist in the way that they are portrayed in the book to exist for one. And then second, the way society has interpreted them is so off on top of it. like, I actually do believe that although like the words borderline personality disorder exists, the diagnostic criteria exists, the book you find the diagnostic criteria exists, people who identifying with having BPD exists, many people in the medical system who believe BPD exists, like it exists in all those ways, but like, the more you like dive into it, like what is this? How does it show up? How do we measure it? Is it measurable? Like. what context. Yeah, it is it literally doesn't exist in that way. Yeah, so it's like I know it's a very provocative statement, but like I sometimes I think okay What's the book you would write and it would be like mental illness doesn't exist like and then it would be like Me and my clients journey of discovering that or something because like yeah, I've had a whole relationship with the mental health system that has been I Look back on it and I'm like, whoo. I wonder I wonder in 50 years what people will say about the things that happened to me and then also the things that happened to lots of folks in the mental health system that is just like, my gosh, there's totally a different way of approaching this. I mean, we've talked, I work uh part time at a behavioral hospital and just sometimes when I'm there, feels, and unfortunately or fortunately, I for money there and I try my best to kind of do the approach that we do here with the patients and it's great. I sometimes wish I could do it more, but I know I could not do what I'm doing with them if I worked more full time there. So because I am able to take care of myself. and present myself in a way that like can take the time to get to know the patients and ask them questions and be like yeah this does suck you know but if i were there five days a week uh-uh there's no way i would end up like a lot of the other staff members there but yeah there are a lot of things that were like i don't even like writing notes here this feels so Yeah, yeah. And I tell them that too. The patients are like, are you going to write a note about this? like, well, this is what the note kind of looks like unless you want me to like, but I'm usually pretty transparent because it's why, why should I? is so... Tell me what you're thinking. So, okay, I worked at an inpatient psych unit um for, think it was like two years. And then I interned at the same like hospital system in an outpatient facility. And the outpatient facility was, I think one way to say it would be much more peaceful. Inpatient, yeah, I was remembering some of the notes and I essentially feel like notes in mental health. exists to be like, hey, insurance system, this person is sick enough for you to give us money. Like, I honestly think that's like the main premise. And so, however, being mentally sick and disordered isn't real. So then it's like, Like what can we say about often like biases against people but also just like behavior like yeah if someone was like self-harming three days ago, yeah, we could write a note that says like the scar on their arm indicates blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, there's a whole different story you could tell about that. Like what if they were like escaping an abusive relationship or something, but that doesn't go in the note. It's just like, well, they are disordered. So please like Aetna, please like give us some money for this hospital stay. And I'm just like, there has to be a better way. There has. And that type of note taking. that type of note taking, I swear to God, it trickles into like everything that people do. Everything the staff does, everything the patients do, because it's like, okay, we have to prove that like. conversation you have with staff members. Yep. Yes. oh Like we have to prove that this like group therapy they went to where they were half asleep because they were like, detoxing. Yeah, we have to convince so the hospital system can get the money, like insurance to reimburse them. And so much of that is essentially using pathological language. Yeah, we have to if a patient does not attend three days in a row groups when they're first admitted, then we have to do an alternative treatment plan. And it's like, first three days? Like, what do think they're doing? They're sleeping. They're exhausted. Like, noncompliance with groups. Are you kidding me? Like, what? And then sometimes, you know, when I was working there, like some of the patients who would stay in their rooms, they could literally just be like people who... were recently sexually assaulted. And maybe if all the other people in the inpatient unit were men or something, and they were a woman, maybe then it has literally nothing to do about compliance or them wanting to be there, them wanting to do group therapy, and also about not the patients who are men either, but just their circumstance. Yeah. uh yeah, gosh, could go on and on and on. really think that what happens in inpatient psych like trickles down into society like the way people are treated and the people who get labeled as disorder and the way the system benefits from it like who's making money. And even we've talked about this before of like, are you sick enough on the waiting list to get therapy services? Because if you're not, then we're going to take someone who's a little bit more sick than you. And it's like, how do you even decide? First off, you don't have to be sick to go to therapy, but how do you even decide? Yeah. Like value the pathologizing. How do you decide what has more value or worth or what takes precedence? That's an impossible. It's impossible. And then there's the like other side of the conversation where let's say they get on the wait list, they finally get a therapist. And then the whole premise of being in therapy is you still need to be sick to stay in therapy. So let's say this person finally feels better for like, let's say they're 35, they finally feel good for the first time in like 20 years. And then they're like, I don't want to lose my therapist and my therapist can only see me. if I'm disordered. And so a lot of this, it's like subconscious more, but like, it's then it's like, okay, well, now that I really like having my therapist, I kind of need to keep showing up and being like, things aren't good, because I don't want to lose the therapist. And then it's like, I, that's another part of the industry is like, if it was more about, let's follow you until you want to stop versus let's follow you until you're neutral enough that we kind of like kick you out. That's why I've had conversations with our boss, Brandon before, where I'm like, what, what do we do? Like you've had clients for eight years and like they're doing okay. What do you do? Cause I, I didn't know like that's, I'm in school right now. That's what we're getting taught. It's like they have to I have had a client for five years now. And he's like, we just talk about whatever's going on. And that can be great things. can be sad things. That can be about games. can be about whatever. it, that's just it. It can be that. what's the RBG? Yeah. Her quote about the umbrella of like, um don't take an umbrella. Like something about like if it's, if the tool's working. Oh yeah, something about like don't close an umbrella while it's raining. You don't have close it while it's raining when it's working or something. It's working. oh be something so powerful too about like a relationship with a therapist long-term that you enjoy where maybe you're seeing them once a month, but then something happens and you're like, man, there's no one else who's a therapist literally because this person has been my therapist for so long, who would understand it in this way. And I love having sessions with clients where there's like a callback to like, I'll remember five years ago when this happened and like you figured it out and they're like, my God. yeah. that's so beautiful. Yeah, it's really beautiful. So yeah, that was part of my like, when I was going into mental health, was like, I know I'm gonna end up in private practice because I need to just see people for as long. feel so grateful to have found a place immediately. I mean, I did interview other sites and I'm so glad that our school was like, bring a site that you actually resonate with and things and not just the first one that offers you a thing. And I found a lot of people I know didn't listen to that advice. Yeah, I think it ought to be. this one and I was like, there's something different here and I'm different, you know? And like, let's lean into that. And there is no other person that plays the role that Brandon plays in my life. uh This community, there's no other community in my life that plays the role this community plays in my life. I can be mad at Caitlin and tell her immediately. It's so healing for me. Thank you. Oh my gosh, being told I'm annoying is like so relieving. I gotta work on it with other people here because I think I'm more comfortable with you to do that So look forward to that when you listen to me and Caitlin talk yeah yeah there's gonna be like a silence and then you're gonna say Or I'll say I'm so embarrassed. Because that is a new emotion, not new, but I finally have identified the language for when I cry and I cry often. And to finally attach embarrassment to it, I feel so much better. I mean, I still get embarrassed, but like having that is like, my God, that's what happening. I don't know, it's empowering. It's empowering to know that I'm feeling embarrassed. I felt that way with like depression versus being tired. Like for a long time when I was really tired, I would be like, I'm clearly depressed. And now I'm like really tired. And sometimes I still think I'm depressed, but then I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, Are you tired? And then I'll sleep and I won't feel depressed when I wake up because I wasn't depressed. I was just tired. And then they me that too about tiredness and I was like, oh you're right, I'm just exhausted. else. Yeah, and the idea behind tired is like tired relates to your biology needing rest versus depression is like What is depression? What isn't depression? Like it doesn't exist in like in the ways we make it seem like it exists. So yeah, we perpetuate its existence. I have a four so I'm thinking about maybe we start like wrapping up Yeah, this was fun, Caitlin. We're doing things and it'll just keep forming into whatever malleable thing it is. Yeah, I'm thinking about artists and how, how do I describe this? I feel like there's a judgment in artistic communities of like, okay, you can't like start writing an album and not finish it. And then if you don't finish writing the album, you can't like put any of the songs out there. Sure. Like, and so I'm trying with this to do where it's like, if this literally becomes. one song, I'm still gonna put it on goddamn Spotify. It still happens. So like, there's something lovely about that too, because then I feel like, you know, people who identify with having ADHD, then the randomness or like the feeling of, I do this thing and I do it really well and then I jump away, like it doesn't matter because you're literally putting it all out there. Like, so the consequences aren't like... I do this little thing here and I loved it but I didn't keep going and that makes me awful. like, here's a collection of all the little things I did throughout my life. Yeah, that it can be like beautiful and fun. I love that. Maybe my little therapy page I have on Instagram will have more than four posts. Yeah, Oh, exciting. I love. So I guess the thing I'm putting out there is doing more recordings with you and putting them out there and maybe it's podcast, maybe it's a video. And then I feel like it would be really fun to do the sub stack and have almost like a collective blog. think that would be really beautiful to just see other people's life experiences and perspectives and then, you know, take what we want from them. Yeah, and then also I'm thinking of it like for example, if we just open it to all the staff at Effective Artistry, it's also a way for us to just not even have, because some of the internal conversations we have here, I'm like this should be recorded. Yes, yes. So it's like, it's a way to like just put it out there right away. Like the format is like, it's literally on the internet, anyone can read it right away instead of like, we have the conversation enough, we feel like we can use language that sounds like insightful enough to then put it onto the internet. It's like no, this can be like the first conversation can be there already. Well, thanks for listening if you made it this far. appreciate it and we look forward to going on this journey whatever. And I guess I'll do like an outro intro which is like we are both no no no I'm gonna just talk about us we're both therapists at a practice called effective artistry which is a group um individual therapy practice group therapy practice we're doing a group together coming up um yeah Olivia's trained as a drama therapist we both identify as artists have background in the arts and we are putting ourselves out there and having fun we invite you to do this. Yeah, please be in community with us. I love I love getting inspired by other people. It's I was like, what if we get fan art one day? uh What if we do? It would be beautiful. It would be beautiful. Okay, peace! Bye!